Curse

fatboyslimerr · Jun 17, 2006, 11:42 AM // 11:42

Played a few GvGs last night and 2 of the teams were FC air spikers. My guild played balanced because we think its the best. The main point is that neither team were particularly skilled and so we had domination over the flag and morale but the first air spikers could do really good spikes so we struggled to stay alive and the other team were pretty bad at spiking so we won easily.

What I'm saying is FC air spike seems to me like a gimmic build which anyone can pick up and play with relative success and only a bit of skill with spike coordination is required. We only won against the second air spikers because they were crap at spiking, the first team had us totally beaten in damage output and we just weren't really prepared for a proper split. I know iB used a balanced to beat Rus Corp (who only play air spike so it seems.... Mantra of lightning ftw !!) but how does a pretty common balanced team really go about countering air spike, other than splitting ??

So far I thought of using a ritualist with shelter and union (and possibly dissonance) but he/she would replace either my ele air spiker (flash bot) or my necro hex spammer who are both vital and keep damage output high and apply pressure. Alternatively I thought swapping the necro hex spammer for a mesmer hex spammer and so having 2 mesmers with CoF but Orb is only the really thing interruptable due to fast casting. Or just mass enchant removal possibly with well of profane or something similar. I suppose splitting is then the best option. Any advice or tips because I'm sure FC air spike will be around for awhile.

Thanks

Poison Ivy · Jun 17, 2006, 11:51 AM // 11:51

Well, when your running a build, and your purpose is to win...you gota be prepared for anything. If I were you, I'd grab a warrior and some casters 2 of them prefered) and take a monk (RCProt would be nice) and take them to gank, while having the other 4 staying with the lord defending.

I didn't play in that GvG, so I had no idea what situation exactly you were in, but before you go into a GvG, you need to either have a leader who is exprinced and won't screw up during desperate situations, or have a non official leader who is skilled.

Before going into a gvg, ask yourself 10 "what if's", for example : What if the enemy is spiking, or what if we die at the flag stand fight?

Hope that helps.

Xasew · Jun 17, 2006, 11:54 AM // 11:54

-Enchantment removal+energy denial.
-Interrupts.
-Splits(expecially inexperienced teams don't know how to handle this).
-Ward vs. Stability(at least RUS always Gales the Infuser before spiking).
-Diversion.

Those normally help.

Xasew · Jun 17, 2006, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poison Ivy

(RCProt would be nice)

Who uses that in GvG?

fatboyslimerr · Jun 17, 2006, 12:09 PM // 12:09

Well we did anticipate the second FC air spikers after getting wooped the first time. We do have someone shouting in TS how flippin' annoying FC air spike is lol and also telling us to hide behind builds to stop getting orbed

The first spikers used a water snarer so we couldn't dodge as well and so they could body block us from trying to run away. They didn't even use gale, either of the guilds or an infuser just to simple monks which I had a wonderful time diversioning

I was just too overfaced trying to enchant remove and diversion 5 mesmers while shutdowning their monks at the same time lol.

I think enchant removal is possibly one of the best options, that combined with an effective split might work well too. Interrupts are too hard as I've already said everything but Orb casts in less than 3/4 of a second, so unless your god you can only stop Orb.

Thanks for comments so far.
Perhaps he thought I said HA, so he presumed a RC prot lol.

Patrograd · Jun 17, 2006, 12:47 PM // 12:47

You have to either split or disrupt the spike, neither of which are very difficult to pull off tbh.

lord of shadow · Jun 17, 2006, 02:06 PM // 14:06

the reason you are playing balanced is to be able to counter pretty much anything. What happened to CoF, drains on the mesmers' attunes, Kds on warriors or possibly eles.. i could go on.

you called FC airspike a "gimmick"; it is- that means it has very obvious counters. use them

Xasew · Jun 17, 2006, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Get Draw Conditions. One of the most annoying things is the constant Blinding Flash, which makes your warriors' job alot harder. Draw is the perfect counter to it.

Phelann · Jun 17, 2006, 05:16 PM // 17:16

First off, to those telling him to do a full split of his group, monks split up and all, you are basically telling himt o commit suicide. Any smart fc air will send back a single monk and an air ele and stall your progress in their base while they completely destroy your defending team that you have left with a single monk.

The trick is to force them to send back a monk while you can keep up defense and offense up. What we do is send back our air ele with draw conditions (we don't need his tank hate) with a solo warrior, so they can't just send back an ele, they HAVE to send back at least one monk. They will also send back a fc air or their runner ele, so their spike is diminished. AND if you keep running flags, they have to have ANOTHER person run theirs. So suddenly they have a weaker spike up front with a solo monk, while we have two monks, a mesmer, a warrior, and either an assassin or a crip shot.

After that, its a simple matter of pressuring the one monk until he collapses then whiping the rest of them. Once you secure that morale boost you are harder to spike, and you may even be able to pull off a steamroll when you whipe their flag group.

Even if yuo dont want to that, seriousely, dont do a full split. Most fc air know how to deal with this while still keeping heavy offense up front, so you would just be either a) handing them a victory or b) counting on them to be idiots. The latter is not the best thing to rely on in gvg.

NikkiIsNub · Jun 17, 2006, 09:36 PM // 21:36

One of the easier tidbits of information I can give you is to have your monks move up. The second your monks take to run up from the backline to heal warriors or other frontline characters is time they could be using to save his life. Fast Cast Air Spikes can spike you from almost anywhere, so there's not much use having your monks hiding in the backline.

Also, a dom mesmer can really help out if you're doing some Diverion or even Blackout spamming. This does a few things. It will either stall their next Orb spike, or take that character out of the orb spike for the new few tries they have. This not only reduces damage, but it gives your monk less healing they have to pump out.

Another thing is to have your monks try and realize who their frequent targets will be. Your backline (your monks, your hard rezzer, etc) will probably be priority targets.

Keep in mind that it doesn't all come down to your monks. Disrupting their spike the best ways you can is definitely the easiest way to get them. Mesmers are very soft targets, and if you have someone with Draw Conditions, then it's pretty much GG if you can keep Blinds off your warriors.

jonnybegood · Jun 17, 2006, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Yeah I had a Tough time least night with air spike also, we were on the Ilse of weeping stone and we saw they were using a spike, So we thought it would be best to split up. we had a team of 4 on the flag and a another to take out NpC, well they split aswell and they still droped our targets. We lost that one but thankgod it was the only one of the night. I think we were mid 500 and they were late 700

Phelann · Jun 18, 2006, 12:20 AM // 00:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by NikkiIsNub

One of the easier tidbits of information I can give you is to have your monks move up. The second your monks take to run up from the backline to heal warriors or other frontline characters is time they could be using to save his life. Fast Cast Air Spikes can spike you from almost anywhere, so there's not much use having your monks hiding in the backline.

Disagree completely. Yours monks should stay in back, your casters should be in the middle, and your warriors should be inside of them. Monks only need to keep the midline in range, warriors have enough defense that they can easily sprint back when they are spiked. Then its very, very obvious if the enemy group is about to spike their monks because they charge up so you won't be losing support anytime soon, unless your monks aren't paying attention^_^

NikkiIsNub · Jun 18, 2006, 12:46 AM // 00:46

While I definitely agree that warriors need to run back to their monks and not the other way around, Fast Cast air spike is...well, fast enough to allow less of a chance for that. You have 5 orbs flying at you plus the less that .5 second after spike is rough.

But your positioning idea is something my guild hasn't tried before, but it seems viable. *shrug*

Wasteland Squidget · Jun 18, 2006, 01:03 AM // 01:03

For FC air spike, what Phelann says makes perfect sense. FC air spike has low AL penetration and can't kill a warrior without an afterspike. That should give the warrior time to run back into monk range, while simultaneously making the monks harder to Gale and lessening the number of possible spike targets.

Against an armor ignoring or high damage spike things get a little bit different. Warriors can drop as quickly as the monks (probably even quicker because they have a Superior Rune), and it's probably hurting your team a bit more to have warriors drop than monks. Both get ressed, but warriors lose more from death against a spike. They can't extend as far and lose their adrenaline, which can mean the loss of a lot of momentum in certain builds.

Mr Bunny · Jun 18, 2006, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xasew

Who uses that in GvG?

Sadi from PuG (of gwversus.com fame) was running a boon RC-prot a few days ago. His energy management came from a battery W/N with BIP.

Not conventional, but definitely interesting to watch.

Xasew · Jun 18, 2006, 01:58 AM // 01:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phelann

First off, to those telling him to do a full split of his group, monks split up and all, you are basically telling him to commit suicide. Any smart fc air will send back a single monk and an air ele and stall your progress in their base while they completely destroy your defending team that you have left with a single monk.

Even if you dont want to that, seriously, dont do a full split. Most fc air know how to deal with this while still keeping heavy offense up front, so you would just be either a) handing them a victory or b) counting on them to be idiots. The latter is not the best thing to rely on in gvg.

We have no defence against casters. None at all. Which means that against caster spike we always have to split.
We faced RUS and did a 4-4 split. The game ended in our warrior+smiter hitting their GL, while they killed ours, so it was a matter of a few dozen seconds. So saying a full split is suicide isn't exactly true...
But, I still agree that if you have a build that allows you to leave 2 Monks in defence while having enough offence in your split in their base, do so instead of a full split.

BBS · Jun 18, 2006, 02:36 AM // 02:36

FC Air spike is basicly for noobs. any team can jump test for a few hours and then go spike...

The only spike i like is adrenal spike :P

Zui · Jun 18, 2006, 03:41 AM // 03:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBS

FC Air spike is basicly for noobs.

Not really. I'm sure you've seen Rift run FC Airspike?

http://ladder.guildwars.com/ladder.dll?tag=Rift

Patrograd · Jun 18, 2006, 11:21 AM // 11:21

The best counter to fc air spike is shelter and union, which if placed very deep so they cant spike the spirits completely kills the spike, with each orb suddenly doing something like 35 damage instead of 100-150. Not all builds can fit a ritualist in though, but I would suggest that if you are having alot of trouble with this particular build then you find the room to fit a backline ritualist in - he will also help you against adrenal spikes (soothing, shelter, union)

fatboyslimerr · Jun 18, 2006, 12:10 PM // 12:10

I've already thought of a lot of this but thanks for the help. My current thoughts are mass enchant removal in the form of a gaze of contempt necro as well as possibly having a warrior with strip enchant and plague touch (probably hammer warrior). The idea of the Ele and warrior making a charge at the base seems like a great plan because they are unlikely to send their whole team back (if they are we will get morale) so their spike will diminish slightly

I think Air Spike is easy to play but can be played very well as well. The first air spike team I played against used hex breaker to counter my enchant removal and an ice snarer to stop dodging and delay our flag runner. They were obviously quite talented but I still think its gimmicy.

A ritualist seems like the most obvious solution but I'm having problems fitting one into my build without losing damage output. As well as a BO ranger working with me (mesmer) who also uses blackout

so we can affectively take 2 people out of the spike + any KD targets my warriors are bashing.

Thanks again for the help. I'm quite looking forward to the next FC air spikers we face who will wonder why they are never enchanted